Tandem Talks: The Character Episode

Jen - Hello and welcome to the Tandem Collective Talks podcast.

Lex - Tandem Collective celebrates books, film, TV, podcasts and more with our global community.

Lucy - We’re Jen, Jaide, Lucy and Lex, members and friends of Team Tandem. You might already know us from Instagram or TikTok, but if not, it's great to meet you and welcome.

Jen - We're here to chat to you about what's new in the world of books, publishing and film, interview some of your favorite authors and hear your thoughts on what you're reading and watching at the moment. 

Jaide - You can find us at @tandemcollectiveuk on Instagram and also @tandemcollectiveglobal

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Lucy - Hello and welcome to another episode of Tandem Collective Talks. Now you will have established by now that we, as your podcast hosts, all value different elements of a book. Lex loves a good plot twist. The more unpredictable, the better. Jen needs a book that successfully creates anticipation, creepy or otherwise. And I love a book that really taps into my emotions and leaves me thinking about it long after I've finished reading.

But one fundamental that we're all in agreement with is the importance of strong characters. Whether it's a character that we love, love to hate, or that just really creeps us out, if they're done well, they can make or break a book. So we're going to be chatting about some of our most memorable characters. And later on, we'll also be speaking with fellow podcaster Dannie, who is at @blottedinkbooks about her podcast, a Novel Evening, where she asks her guests to choose their top five literary characters to invite to a dinner party.

So Lex and Jen, from your respective lifetimes of reading when you think of standout characters who immediately springs to mind? I feel I'm going to get quite different answers from you both. Jen, I'll come to you first.

Jen - I was thinking about this and there's quite a few actually. There's quite a few authors whose thing is creating really strong characters. So like Stephen King, Roald Dahl. But I think the standout character for me is Rebecca in Daphne du Maurier. Because have you read Daphne Du Maurier’s Rebecca? Okay. Rebecca is actually the dead ex-wife, so she's never actually in the book, but she is constantly mentioned and talked about and she's in every scene.

So she's ever-present without actually being there. And I love that. I think that is darkly fantastic.

Lucy - I'm also getting, because it wouldn't be a podcast episode if we didn't reference this book, Verity vibes with that.

Jen - Definite Verity vibes. Yes. Even the husband in Rebecca, Maxim de Winter is very similar to the husband in Verity, yeah. 

Lucy - Oh, nice. Okay. Any others?

Jen - I honestly think it might be… And we've talked about this as a group, but it might be like Matilda for me. You just can't forget a Roald Dahl character. They become part of your mind. And you just feel like they never really leave you. I love that.

Lucy - Yeah. Yeah. He's a master of memorable characters.

Lex - Yeah. There's a bit in The Twits where Roald Dahl is describing all of the things that are stuck in his beard. And I haven't read that book for probably 20 years. And I can still picture the illustration that's on the page and I can still think about the cheese and the crumbs that he was saying was stuck in this guy's beard.

And I'm like, okay, great.

Lucy - Yeah, that makes me shudder. 

We should have had a content warning for that. Beard detritus. Lex, what about you? Who are particularly memorable characters that you think of.

Lex - So I had a bit of a strange list as I was thinking about this. The one that immediately came to mind is Vanessa from My Dark Vanessa, because she is equal parts frustrating and annoying and you want to shout at her and shake her by the shoulders, but then also on the kind of alternate she is so easily related to, you know, I feel like she is.

There are so many parts of Vanessa that I think so many women will see reflected in themselves in some way. So I think, Kate Elizabeth Russell has managed to create this character from her own imagination, but from her own experience that somehow manages to encapsulate all women at some stage of their lives, which is a massive feat. But then to come back a little bit into kind of my more potentially more expected answer, it's got to be Hannibal Lecter from The Silence of the Lambs.

I feel like there are so many serial killers that are written now that have something Hannibal-esque about them. And it kind of feels like he was the center of this mycelium for how people write serial killers now. He was just such a brilliant character. And when you look at the film, Anthony Hopkins did such an amazing job, something ridiculous, like he won an Oscar for that film, but he's actually only in it for something ridiculous, like 19 minutes, like, okay.

Lucy - When was the book actually written? 

Lex - When was the book written? No idea. Let me look it up. 

Jen - I'd say eighties, I think.

Lucy - But that is really impressive. I’ve not read the book, I’ve only seen the film. 

Lex - I know it was written by Thomas Harris. 1988!

Lucy - Well done, Jen.

Jen - But Lex, coming back to My Dark Vanessa, I think you are totally right on that one. I think most women there are parts of that book that you can feel so horribly seen and emotional reading it. I remember when I read it, there’s a quote towards the end, and it's something like ‘with the sunshine on my face and a dog at my feet, I have so much capacity for good’ and it's just understanding herself after she’s come through this horrible time and I don't know, I can't imagine anyone reading My Dark Vanessa, and not feeling some of that pain.

Lex - Yeah, no, I completely agree. And I think, Luce, I know you haven't read My Dark Vanessa yet, but when you do, you're going to have to come back and talk to Jen and I, because it is there are so many one liners like quotes that had the power to bring me to my knees, like, emotionally. And I like I read the predominance of My Dark Vanessa the first time on netgalley in a Starbucks in Southampton, which is not the place to read a book like this.

You need to read it on your own in the safe spaces of your own environment and follow Vanessa on this journey. But once you've read it, call me.

Lucy - Yeah, it's been on my TBR for a while, but I hear really good things about it. And yeah, those one liners that you talk about, I love writing like that where it's almost like pack a punch and it's that you read these really powerful words and you're just like, Oh, wow, let's, let's just digest that for a bit.

Lex - And Luce, to your point about needing to read a book that you won't be able to stop thinking about, it's 100% this. This is the best recommendation that I could give for that brief.

Lucy - Strong endorsement. I like that.

Jen - I always feel really weird about recommending My Dark Vanessa because I feel like it was really big on Bookstagram. But it's not a book in good conscience that I can say to everyone ‘You should read this book’ like it's a lot, it's a hard read. It's amazing, but it's not everybody pick this up, Flatshare style book.

Lucy - So yeah, I actually remember us having a conversation about it a while ago. Jen and you making that point that it is almost problematic.

Lex - I completely agree with Jen. It is a book that I recommend to almost everyone, but at the same time I serve it with a massive content warning. I was just looking for one of the quotes and one of the ones that affected me the most was ‘How much strength does it take to hurt a little girl?But how much strength does it take for the girl to get over it? And now which one of them do you think is stronger?’  And I think that quote gives you a bit of a nod as to the kind of content warnings that this book is going to come with. And I think if you are in any way going to be affected by anything like that, definitely do a little bit of research before you jump in I would say. 

Lucy - Yeah. Going back to both of your points about memorable characters, I think, yeah, Roald Dahl or anything that you read when you're younger as well, really has the power to stay with you like a stand out memorable character for me was Miss Havisham from Great Expectations. And because I think I've read that book once, kind of off my own back, but I remember it being read to me when we were in primary school, I was like year six and I just this whole like the fact that she's almost like a living ghost and obviously preserving the wedding day that didn't happen

And the creepy element of her being an old lady just in her wedding dress, like that, really, really stayed with me when I was younger. So that would be one that I would class as a memorable character from something I read when younger and then a more recent one and Lex you kind of touched on this with the relatable aspect of Vanessa is Grace from How to Kill Your Family by Bella Mackie.

And she's obviously like a serial killer, but I think that that is from an author’s perspective, it's really clever when you can do that, when you can create a character that you know is effectively a criminal, but the feels really likable and obviously she's very witty because it's written from first person narrative. It's very funny, you know, kind of humor really reminds me of one of my friend's sense of humor.

But as a character, I really liked her, even though, you know, she's murdered multiple people.

Jen - Luce, you've been podcasting with me and Lex for too long at this point in your career, and I'm not sure whether I'm immensely proud of you or whether I'm worried for your future.

Lucy - Let's go with the first one. Yeah so I think a good mix there. We won't get onto who we would have a dinner party with, I think we can save that for the chat with Dannie a bit later on, but thank you both for such brilliant character recommendations. 

Hi everyone. It’s Lucy here. I hope you're enjoying the podcast so far.

If you'd like to support us further, it's super important to rate, review and subscribe to the podcast on your preferred player. We'd love to hear what you think on which episodes are your favourite. So hit us up at podcast@thetandemcollective.com to chat. Now back to the episodes you came for. Now, welcome to Dannie, who is @blottedinkbooks. 

Thank you so much for joining us today.

Dannie - Oh, thank you. This is wonderful. It's nice to be on the other side of being asked questions. I'm nervous.

Lucy - Well, don’t be. Your podcast, a Novel Evening, we've all listened to all big fans of the concept. So for anyone who hasn't listened to it already, you put to your guests the notion that they can invite their five favorite literary characters to a dinner party, create the setting, create everything to do with that evening. When did you first start doing it and what was it that kind of made you want to put the podcast out there?

Dannie - I've always really loved the idea of having a podcast. I enjoyed listening to them. I listened to a lot of true crime podcasts, really. That was kind of all I really listened to. And I was like, I’d really love to do something. And I started one with a friend of mine, @otterlybookish. We did one together and then we kind of like we were recording kind of sporadically together and then I kind of had the idea of it would kind of be really fun to get to talk to other Bookstagrammers to start with. Which, obviously, I chat to Jen a lot, she knows that we talk a lot. And I just thought it'd be interesting, you know, I was kind of coming up with ideas. This one came to me quite quickly. You know, you got the idea of, like, the dream fantasy dinner party, but just making it bookish and then having, like, no limitations. So you can pick any setting from a book.

You can have authors dead or alive. And then I was incredibly lucky that I kind of approached some authors kind of expecting to message and be like ‘Hi, do you want to come on?’ and them be like ‘No, thank you, thanks, but no thanks’. And then they started saying yes, which was incredible. But also I was like, Oh no, now I have to pretend I know what I'm doing and do this properly.

And yeah, it's really interesting for me. The thing I love about it is seeing how different people's, you know, what they would want there. And also when people choose similar characters, similar authors, their reasons are so different. So it seems like a really nice baseline for starting a conversation about books really. 

Lucy - Yeah. Well, it's such a conversation piece when people do it all the time with celebrities don’t they, who would your celebrities be to a dinner party, but that has to be obviously current and people who are still alive. So yeah, I think like you say, the added dimension of being able to have anybody dead or alive, author or character is a brilliant concept.

Dannie - And I love that then some people have really thought out their dinner party and they know how their guests would relate to each other. But some people will pick characters and they’ll be like ‘Ooh, how would that work? What would they talk about?’ Which is really fun. So it’s just a different way of looking at stories and books really. 

Lucy - Have you ever had a really stand out episode, like somebody that you've interviewed and you felt their choices were either really rogue or their reasons for why they would invite their characters were just something you'd never thought of yourself?

Dannie - Oh, you know, we've had so many and they're all so different. We've had like murder mystery weekends. We've had people come on, one of ours was in the M&Ms Store, which was very strange. I loved when Catherine Webber and Kat Doyle came on and did theirs because I felt firstly, I don’t think they had prepped a lot. And then as we were going they were like ‘Oh, we should invite this person, I’d have that person’. 

Before we knew it was like spiraling, but it was actually really interesting to see how they kind of were like, ‘Oh yeah, yeah, I'd have that person and what about them?’ Which was really fun. And my neighbor actually came and did one as well, which was probably one of my funniest because that was an in-person one and we had quite a lot of wine at this point as well.

So that was a really memorable one just because it was just ridiculous. But yeah, I think they've all been so interesting and I don’t just say that, I've been very lucky.

Jen - I love as well Dannie that as part of the podcast, you do, who would you not invite? Because it just gives you a great opportunity to really slate either characters or I suppose authors that you think are awful.

Dannie - People are really conservative about that one. I don’t know if it’s maybe it's an inherent Britishness that we're like ‘Ooh, who wouldn't we invite?’ But it's rare that people do. I did have a recording the other day actually, and for the first time someone named an author, they are deceased. But they were so like vehement, like I would not have that person.

I was like, ‘Oh, I thought more people would be like this’. But generally people get more vague. I wouldn't have Tories or I wouldn't have, you know, misogynists or something, or you wouldn't. But I like it when someone names somebody, I’m like ‘that’s bold’.

Lucy - Yeah. Be explicit.

Dannie - Yeah, yeah.. I think it's the Britishness. And this it seems to be like, who would you ban from a party? You're like, ‘Ooh, oh, I don't know about that’. My American guests are much better at being very like, that person is not coming.

Lucy - Yeah.

Lex - I feel like my list of banned guests would have to be really extreme because I think my list of invited guests would predominantly be made up of fictional serial killers. So if they're on their banned list, I'm like, wow, you're really, really bad to not even make dinner with serial killers.

Dannie - Oh, yeah. No, I agree with that. If you're not if you can't make dinner with murderers, then you've obviously done something really, really hideous.

Jen - Lex is an absolute savage, so I feel like 98% of characters and authors would be on the. ‘you are not coming to dinner with me’ list.

Lex - Oh, I'm just very particular with my standards.

Lucy - Let's go with high standards.

Lex - Yeah. I've also got, like, a secret wish that I would invite all of these serial killer characters over, and then they would just have, like, what would be a fairly normal dinner where they like, oh, you know what? Like I had to get rid of this guy last week and X-Y-Z. It turns out that this type of acid is actually far inferior to this type of acid for melting bones, and they would have just like, a little kind of like tips and tricks passing, like, you know, anecdotes about their most recent slasher.

Lucy - Yeah, that would be really entertaining to listen to. So, Danny, obviously you've had over 60 episodes now.

Dannie - Which is mad.

Lucy - And you always get to be the one to put this question to your guests. So we want to have you on Tandem Talks to put the same question to you. So can you talk us through who your five fictional characters would be? What would the setting be like? How would you how would you create it?

Dannie - Yeah. So this was really hard for me. And you think I would have thought about this several times, but apparently not. Setting wise people tend to go for like really think about The Shire or Rivendale because they are all beautiful obviously. I think I’d go to Gatsby's mansion, but like it would actually have to be one of his parties in like full swing, right?

You'd have to have the full works because he knows how to throw a party.

Lucy - Yeah. You want a very accessible amount of champagne and all of that stuff, don't you.

Lex - Yeah, exactly. And for somebody else to pay the bill as well.

Dannie - Yes, yeah, exactly. And Gatsby, you know, he will spend the money on a good party, so, you know, you're in for, you know, you’re in for a really good night. And I like to think when I was thinking about this, I was like, oh, you know, because some people come on with such amazing, like literary characters and such deep reasons.

And to be honest, to begin with, mine were just primarily hot dudes from books that I like, but I realise that probably isn’t going to make for the best conversation either.

Lucy - But I mean, you can have a great evening. I'm sure.

Dannie - I would. I still will have a great evening.

Jen - Can I just point out, Dannie, that when I came on to yours, I picked Joe from You to host the evening and literally just because he's a hot psycho, for no other reason, so I’m with you on the hot boys.

Dannie - Yeah, but he's also, like, bookish, right? He's a he's. He really loves books, so.

Jen - Yeah.

Dannie - The murdery stuff is just a byproduct that we could deal with that, you know? Fine. I don't have any murderers, though, at all. There's no murdering. But my first invite is a really sort of basic bitch one. I'm inviting Cassian from the ACOTAR series. Okay. Again, just because he's hot, he's definitely like my book husband, like, 100%, and he's funny.

He's got a nice sense of humour. I'm saying it like this is a dating profile. I think he’d be fun, at a gathering. He'd bring a lot of, like, humor and levity to proceedings.

Lucy - Yeah. And he's got that appeal of, like, strong, manly, but also wouldn't ruffle too many feathers. So a bit of a bit of a diplomatic one as well.

Dannie - Yeah. Yeah. And he's very easy on the eye as well, which I think, you know, everybody there is, you know, I really I'm doing them a favor right?

Lucy - Yeah. Okay. So, Cassian is your first. 

Dannie - Cassian is the first. So next I've got Mia from the NeverNight Trilogy. Again, I mean, did say there's no murder, but she is an assassin, essentially. She's a really bold character and she is quite a hard drinking, smoking, foul mouthed kind of girl. She doesn't mince her words, you know, she calls a spade a spade. And also she doesn’t get to let her hair down very much in these books. It's all very high stakes. So I think she deserves a night to just kind of dress up and let her hair down and flirt a bit. 

Lucy - I like that, lots of very considerate considerations, like let your hair down Mia. Come to our dinner party.

Dannie - Yeah, yeah, I think so. I think so. And then I've invited - I'm a big fan of like kind of musicals, biographies of like the sixties and seventies. There's something about that time that I loved and I adored Daisy Jones and The Six. For that reason, I just thought as I was reading, I kind of forgot that it wasn't actually a real band in a real story.

So I would have, I’ve said Daisy, I would like her to come, but obviously she'd have to bring the band who provides music.

Lucy - That’s a very good shout yeah, who's going to be your dinner party entertainment?

Dannie - Yeah. And I think she'd be interesting to just sit and chat to, and she seems very cool. I think her and Mia would probably hit it off pretty well.

Lucy - Yeah. And I don’t feel she would bring the band in like a braggy in your face way, it would just be like, ‘Oh, well, of course I'd bring the band to play’.

Dannie - Yeah, we'd all just hang out somewhere after like I think it'd be very, a very relaxed vibe. My next guest is probably less relaxed, but I've got with Aragorn. Obviously from Lord of The Rings. Again, I feel like I am very much picturing movie Aragorn in my head as I imagine him.

Lex - Aren't we all like? He gets a massive thumbs up from me. Please, can I come to the party?

Lucy - It's Vigo Mortenssen, isn't it? 

Dannie - Yeah.

Lucy - So again, a bit of eye candy.

Dannie - I think as well, the thing is that Aragorn is every so often in the book and the film you see like little glimpses of like relaxed Aragorn, you see little glimpses of like a little bit of humour and a little bit of kind of. I'd like to see if we could bring out more of that in Aragorn in a situation. I'd like to see whether or not be possible to get him to relax.

I don’t know if he has a relaxed side. 

Lucy - Yeah. Come out of his shell a bit more. Okay. Yeah, very good choice.

Dannie - So my last one, I really struggled with my fifth one. At the moment I'm reading the Ember and the Ashes quartet. I’m reading that at the moment, and I've picked Elias from those books again poor Elias doesn't really get much of a break in any of these books. He's also he's very hot. He knows his way with a blade.

He's very funny at times, but he really has a bit of a rough ride of it throughout the entire book. So again, I think he needs a party. Yeah, I just feel sorry for him. I feel like he just needs a bit of a break and to let his hair down and have a few drinks and a bit of a laugh.

So I'm inviting him. So that's my five.

Lucy - Okay, good mix there, I think. Yeah. I like your reasons for inviting them.

Dannie - They’re all a bit broody as well. Or brooding.

Lucy - Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So difficult question. Since we've got Cassian, Mia, Daisy Jones, Aragorn and Elias, if you could only have. I suppose it changes the vibe massively. It becomes less of a dinner party, more of a dinner date. If you can only meet with one of those, who are you going to choose?

Dannie - Cassian? It's a no brainer. A dinner date. You say? Yes.

Jen - Can I be risque here and suggest both that character and Daisy Jones for a dinner date? Dinner date for three.

Dannie - I mean, I would actually take Daisy out and I probably take Mia because I think, again, she's a bit of bi representation as well, two of us at the table, I think, you know, Cassian would be very up for that as well. 

But I think actually I don't know if Cassian could handle Mia. I think she's a bit of a livewire. And I'm saying that like I could, but.

I don't think he’d handle both of us. 

Lucy - Yeah. Okay, very good mix there. And yeah, I'm sure the six of you plus Daisy’s band would have a great night. 

Dannie - Plus all the guests because, you know, random, you know, everyone comes to Gatsby's house, don't they? So a big old party in full swing.

Lucy - Yeah. You’d all be in one room having your dinner and then there'd be like lots of other people just milling around the house, potentially looking in. Definitely a memorable evening.

Lex - Can we just for one second talk about how conscientious Dannie is being like, how these characters interact with each other, whether they could handle each other, the characters that need a break from their like wars and, you know, fighting. When I was thinking about this, I was like, yes, but who will I benefit most from at my dinner party?

Dannie - I’ve been a little bit selfish I think, you know, a lot of my, I'm probably giving you reasons to cover up my selfishness.

Lucy - But no, but they're very, very well thought out. And I like how you've gone down the road of thinking. Who would get on well with each other? In that list there, I can't see there being like fireworks between any of the guests.

Jen - Well, Dannie is also a mama, so she's also thinking who's going to play nicely together? She doesn't want to have to put people on the naughty step. 

Lucy - Yeah.

Dannie - I don’t want drama. Drama at a party is just a no. Like you don't want fights and arguments. These are all people I think would get on pretty well.

Lucy - Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so that's your five list for your dinner party. Today's episode of our podcast is obviously about memorable characters or people that really stand out to us, whether it's a book that we read when we were younger or a character that we've recently been introduced to. Is there a character that you've read in a book and you think, Oh, I wish I'd been the person to come up with them?

Dannie - Oh, well, she's she is one of my party guest. But Mia, when I read her, I yeah, that is like a fantasy. I wish I'd written that fantasy. It's. It's so intricate and so cool. And she's a character that is just fearless and strong and badass. Yeah, I really, really wish I'd written her because she's just awesome.

Lucy - Yeah, no, she's a good one. And then who, it doesn't necessarily have to be from your five, but which character would you love to see on the big screen and who would you cast to pay them? So obviously we've got the lovely Viggo Mortensen as Aragorn already. But anyone beyond that that you think, oh, I.

Dannie - I chose two different people, two different characters, two different actors. So the first one is a little controversial now, but Evelyn Hugo. Ana de Armas is playing Marilyn in Blond that came out today. She is also a Cuban actress and I just could see her. She's for me, exactly how I pictured Evelyn for a start. I think she's a fantastic actress.

And just from the pictures of her as Marilyn actually captures that era so well. I know they're already working on an adaptation, so if they haven't already cast her, thats an idea. 

Lucy - I didn't know that there's an adaptation coming. When I read the book I was like ‘Oh my God, this needs to be on the big screen’.

Dannie - If Ana’s not playing it, then it's not really like travesty.

Jen - It's on Netflix LJ, the Marilyn thing.

Dannie - Blonde is yeah. 

Lucy - So no I mean Seven Husbands of Evelyn Hugo is, there’s no adaptation of that being talked about is there?

Dannie - Well I know that it’s in the process of being made and they've talked about casting very vaguely. Yeah. I just think she would be awesome. My next one's a bit of a… I feel like people won’t agree with this. I obviously love Jay Kristoff. Empire of the Vampire is a very, very cool book. I think it could work amazingly as a film or as a TV show and Gabe the main character, long, dark hair, very tattooed, very brooding. So this actor is not the most, I fancy him very much, but he's not the most conventionally attractive chap. But I think he's intense enough that he could play Gabe and that's Adam Driver. He was Kylo Ren in Star Wars.

Lucy - Oh, okay. I know what you mean about the intensity.

Dannie - Yes, so facially, maybe not everybody's cup of tea. Definitely mine, but I just think he's got that, like, brooding... Ah, there we go. Yeah, Jen's having a picture. Yeah, he's got that brooding antihero, stick a bit of guyliner on him, get him really buff, long hair, I think he could do it, you know?

Lucy - Yeah. Yeah. Well, look, we're all here for people who celebrity pin-ups that are perhaps not your most conventional.

Dannie - He's just a very good actor as well. He's very good at what he does. And I think if anyone was going to be able to play a brooding, tortured vampire, he could do it.

Lucy  - Yeah, yeah. Okay, nice. And then have you got a stand out all time favorite character? So again, not restricted to your five that you would invite to the dinner party, but someone that you've read and you just thought, I don't know, you've just thought about them for a long time or they're just a brilliant character with lots of layers and someone that really sticks out in your mind.

Dannie - So I was always a really, really big fan of Jacqueline Wilson when I was growing up. I loved her books. I loved the fact that she tackled themes, especially from the kind of household I grew up in, themes of families that were not picture perfect. You know, she dealt with sort of separated families and broken homes. And I remember reading the Illustrated Mum when I was really young, and I remember the cover distinctly. And the main character in that is Marigold who is very, very heavily tattooed. She's the mum of Dolphin and Starr. And I remember as a kid being fascinated with her tattoos, first and foremost, I was obsessed. And then I remember kind of it really tackles things like mental health and single parenting.

I read it recently actually, and it holds up really well as a story for children to explore those kinds of themes. But she was a character that just really stuck with me. And as a mum now myself, who is quite open about my kind of my journey with mental health, I'm also very heavily tattooed as well.

It's just an interesting story now for me to look back on. And she's a character I think is so led, she loves her children so much and tries to create this world of wonder for them. And sadly, sometimes she just really misses the mark. She's obviously dealing with, from what it seems like on the pages, bipolar disorder.

She's kind of navigating being a single parent. She's just a character that stayed with me for a really long time.

Lucy - Yeah. Well, firstly big Jacqueline Wilson fans here, she regularly gets mentioned on our podcast but I would love to reread The Illustrated Mum because I think as an adult, like you say, you’ll come at it with a very different understanding, particularly on the mental health angle. But even when I read that when I was a bit younger, so maybe around 11/12, the scene where - doesn’t she try to Tipp-Ex over her tattoos?

Dannie - She paints it. Yeah, she gets in the bath and paints it. 

Lucy - Really, really made me sad. Like when I was younger, I remember going to bed, finishing that chapter and just feeling, like, desperately sad after reading that bit. So thanks for that. I'm definitely going to reread The Illustrated Mum.

Lex - I think. So. Just to jump in on the Jacqueline Wilson kind of love train, you're so right about how the characters in her books can provide companions for children who are figuring something out like the Suitcase Kid. I think I must have read it a couple of years after my parents divorced and reading this book about this little girl who was moving from house to house and back and forwards and all of the things that she was thinking like, it's going to sound silly and it's going to sound a bit cliche, but it kind of made me go, Oh, it's okay because it's written about in books that I'm allowed to read. 

And this is, it does feel like a companion. And even if that character isn't real, the situation is real. And so many people go through those things, which I think Jacqueline Wilson manages to capture in so many of her books. You've now got me like absolutely jonesing to go back over to my parents house and dig out my Jacqueline Wilson collections to do a big reread.

I would a 100% do that.

Dannie - Oh, you absolutely should. And Vicky Angel for me as well. It was another one that dealt with loss and grief and was so wonderfully explored. Like you said, I think just being able to read situations like that as a kid and realizing, Oh, it's actually okay to want to talk about this stuff and to want to, you know, be open about it is completely true.

Lex - I think Jacqueline Wilson did far more for my emotional intelligence than sections of school did, and I know that sounds like a massive statement, but now that I've said it, I still stand by it like 30 seconds later.

Dannie - So. Yeah, no, I agree. I agree. I think she has a lot of a part to play, I think, in how kids have been able to kind of navigate tough situations for sure. 

Lucy - Okay. Last question for you Dannie in our quickfire round. Obviously, when we talk about standout characters, that doesn't necessarily always mean that they're positive or that you hold them in a positive light. Sometimes you just cannot wait to get back to a character that you also are gripped by but can't stand. Have you ever read a character that you just love to hate or that they've done really, really well, but they're truly dislikable?

Dannie - Yeah so as I said, I’m reading Ember and the Ashes at the moment, the quartet, I’m on the last book. Cerys, the commander in that book is so… Firstly, I was really shocked because it is YA. But the book, the kind of violence and cruelty in that book is quite intense. So warning for anyone who picks them up. I was like, Oh, okay, we're doing this.

But she's so brutal. She's so cold and she's so evil. There's no other word for it, really, that the actions and the things she does. But there's this really hard bit. I don't give anything away if anyone hasn't read it yet, but she's also a mother to one of the characters. And you find out, you know, she abandoned him as a child and then you find it didn't quite happen like that.

It's almost worse that she's got only this small shred of humanity within her, because then you think, how can you do all these awful, awful things and still have this small bit of goodness in you? It almost makes them worse when they've got a little bit of humanity left. She's so well written. She's awful. She does terrible, terrible things, and yet she leaves you conflicted a lot of the time. Definitely. She's an awful villain.

Lucy - Yeah, but very, very well written from the sounds of it.

Dannie - Really well written. And she leaves you guessing all the time whether she's going to suddenly redeem herself and do something good. And you're like, Oh, no, she isn't. And then something else happens. Oh, maybe now she'll do something good. No, she won't. So really, really well-written.

Lucy - Yeah. Firmly in the villain camp. Not. Not kind of two minds about. Are you a good person?

Dannie - You're pretty sure she's pretty much. I mean, I've not finished the last book, so who knows something could happen right at the end. But I'm pretty sure at this point she's not a good person.

Lucy - We have mentioned this already, but please do check any of the titles referenced in this episode for their content warnings before you start reading them. Please do take a minute to rate, review and subscribe to the podcast on your preferred platform as it really does make such a difference in discoverability and rankings. If you've got a recommendation for an episode or a book you think one of us should read immediately, let us know at podcast@thetandemcollective.com.

So to round off our chat with you today, Dannie, we thought a quickfire round of shag, marry, kill based on literary characters from books that we've all read would be, well, just a really funny way to conclude the episode. To be honest, it happened quite accidentally in a chat that we as podcast hosts were having separate to this, and we were like, This has to be, we have to bring this on to Tandem Talks.

So hopefully it's a classic but one I'm bringing is Little Women, three men. So you have Laurie, Friedrich, John Brooke. Now, for anybody who hasn't read it, John Brooke is the one who ends up marrying Meg, the oldest sister, the character that gets a bit of a hard time from some of the other sisters who do think he’s a bit of a drip, Laurie, who's obviously very good friends with Jo for the majority, the novel, when they're growing up, he has an infatuation with Jo and then spoiler alert for anyone who hasn't read it, he ends up marrying Amy. So the younger sister. And finally, Friedrich Bear, who is Jo's eventual love interest and who she ends up marrying.

I think that's actually in Good Wives rather than in the book Little Women. But out of those three, who would you shag, marry, kill?

Dannie - I'm also going to be very basic and I'm just going to picture them as they are in the most recent adaptation, which I have seen, which makes my decision a lot easier actually. So I would probably snog John. He seems sweet. 

Lucy - Oh, thumbs down from Jen.

Dannie - Oh, yeah, he seems harmless. I would probably marry Friedrich. He’s hot. 

Yeah, and I'd kill Laurie because firstly I just think he's a bit of a drip. And second, I really hate Timothee Chalamet. 

Lucy - So I haven't seen the most recent adaptation. I'm still when I think of Laurie in my head, I'm still thinking of a very young Christian Bale.

Dannie - Oh, this is better. Yeah. All I can picture is Timothee, and I really am not a fan. Sorry, Timothee, if you listen to this, I really don’t like you. So a picture here that I'm afraid. I would kill him.

Lucy - He'd be the one to get the boot. Jen, what are your thoughts?

Jen - Well, you know that I'm going to have to kill the one that's a bit of a drip because I can't cope with weak personalities. I'll marry the hottie with the books and shag the other one.

Lucy - Even though he's married your hypothetical younger sister?

Jen - Yeah, fine, whatever. 

Lucy - Bit of family drama, all good. So Lex, what about you?

Lex - Jen has actually stolen my approach that was going to be my go to. Like, I feel very much the same about anyone who is ever described as a drip. No, cannot have you, drip somewhere else please. Thank you. And then I'll take books any day. Books and the hot one. Yes, please line me up.

Lucy - Okay. Good mix of answers there. So our next one. Lex, I believe you’ve got our suggested characters. 

Lex - Yes. So you've got more options to work with for this one. But Dannie, please. I would like a Shag Marry Kill for any of the Cullen family.

Dannie - Ooh.

Lex - Lots to play with here.

Dannie - There is. Ok, I’d probably shag Edward Cullen.

Lex - Interesting.

Dannie - Yeah, I find him quite problematic as a human being. However, he is very attractive, so I think I'd sleep with him and then probably just not call him back after that. I think he’d be a fun one night thing.

Lex- Sure.

Dannie - I'd probably marry Carlisle. I feel like we've all been sleeping on Carlisle Cullen. Maybe it's because I'm 30 now, but now when I watch it, I'm like, Yeah, you know, he's. He's handsome, he's a doctor. He clearly loves his family, he loves his wife. But, you know, he's got money. He's got a lovely house in the woods.

So I'm thinking pragmatically here, he's got none of the weird, tortured teenage stuff Edward has.

Lex - Yeah.

Dannie - So I think I'd marry him and kill…

Lex - I described Carlisle yesterday to Jen as Daddy Cullen. And Jen was like ‘yes, I’m sold’. 

Dannie - Oh he’s got mad daddy vibes. Yeah. Which is so icky, but he does have those vibes. And then kill, you know, actually I do find the rest of the Cullens really irritating. I probably go Rosalie actually, especially in the last books when she gets that weird like mother complex thing going on, she becomes a bit judgey, a bit sour face, not a fan of the judgment.

Also she's got that weird thing with Bella. All It's weird. Yeah. No, I'd probably kill her.

Lex - See, I was going to kill Rosalie for all of those reasons. And the redeeming factor was the fact she goes back to fuck with her ex-husband, who let the guys kill her.

That was just, ok you can stay for that sole reason. 

Dannie - And who would you kill then? Who would you have killed out of the.

Lex - It's very easy for me. It’s Bella, 100%.

Dannie - I see. I didn't count her as a Cullen.

Lex - I'm sorry.

Dannie - Sorry then I would absolutely kill Bella. In that instance. I was thinking like the direct, not, you know.

Lex - Sorry. Yeah, I was including by marriage. Yeah.

Dannie - Oh. Then I see, yeah absolutely her. 

Jen - I’m going to disagree with that. I’ve got Bella as my shag. 

Lex & Dannie - No! No. 

Jen - Yeah. Shag Bella. Marry Daddy Cullen, kill everyone else.

Dannie - That's quite upsetting, actually Jen, if I'm honest with you.

Lex - Okay, so. I would kill either Bella or Edward because I just can't handle the misery.

Dannie - That's why Edward needs a really good shag. That's why that's.

Lex - Okay. So you think you could shag him out of his misery?

Dannie - Yeah.

Lex - I would 100% go to bed with Emmet. He. Yeah, that's fine. That kind of, like, brash, like I'd be. I don't even want to say. Yeah, like, I'm not sure why, but that is working for me and you know, maybe. Yeah, I think it's got to be Daddy Carlisle I would marry. Marry him.

Dannie - He’s got all the signs of a good husband. 

Lex - Yeah. Luce, what's your vibe?

Lucy - Yeah, I think I would shag Daddy Cullen. Because, yeah, the appeals definitely there. Figure of authority, you know, I think that's what I’m getting from him.  I feel like I'd marry Edward only because I feel like I could save him. And I like a project, so, you know. 

Lex - Well, we're surrounded by I can fix him mentally.

Dannie - I was going to say, how many of your friends have been like ‘I can be the one to save him?’ and you’re like Oh God no. 

Lucy - And then I think… who said they’d be the one to kill Rosalie? I think I agree with them. 

Dannie - I started with Rosalie and I didn't realize Bella… I’d kill both of them, sod it, I can do what I like 

Lucy - Neither of them are really bringing much to the dinner table, are they? They wouldn’t get a dinner party invite. 

Dannie - No, no. Okay. I'm a little nervous about who Jen’s picked, I won't lie to you.

Jen - So my selections are from Wizard of Oz. We can't have Dorothy because she's an actual child. So we've got the Wicked Witch of the West, the Cowardly Lion or Oz, The Great and Powerful. What are you saying, Dannie?

Dannie - Oh, this is really hard.

Jen - I think I know what Lex is going to say. Lex, have you got your choices? 

Dannie - Thing is, the Wizard of Oz is not actually that nice, is he? Like when we actually go and see him, he's. Right, I’m probably going to kill him. I'm going to work in reverse here. So I’m going to kill the Wizard of Oz because he was a complete letdown wasn't he? Mm I'm going to go with my Edward Cullen theory and I'm going to shag the cowardice out of the lion.

He is the Cowardly Lion, but also, you know, he's a lion. So there must be something within him that I was going to say, is a bit animal. But anyway. And then, yeah, I'll marry the Wicked Witch of the West because I think we'd be a power couple. 

Jen - I love that. Lex, what you saying?

Lex - Yeah, it was very similar to Dannie, actually, for slightly different reasons, I think. I think let's kill the Wizard of Oz because he's irrelevant, he's not important. He's not the star of the show. And then I think, you know what? I've got my heart set on the Wicked Witch of the West. So I think the lion is kind of just a means to the end.

So I’d shag him, get it over and done with, don't really think about it. And then I would, you know, spend my long days in a castle with the Wicked Witch of the West. You know, I'm a huge Wicked fan. So the fact that she is actually Elphaba, I'm like, great, we can just sit in a castle and be like, miserable and together.

That's fine. Sounds dreamy.

Jen - I love that. Luce, what are you going with?

Lucy - So I think I would shag the Wizard of Oz. Again, I know he’s a letdown at the end of the book, but, you know, it's the figure of authority thing. And to be able to say, I've shagged the Wizard of Oz, I think that would be my reason. And then I think I'd kill the Wicked Witch of the West.

I know. Sorry. I'm getting lots of shocked faces here. And I think I would marry the lion, because to go back to Dannie’s point yeah, I feel that he's got I feel this potential. And also I really I love big cats. Anyway, it's.

Jen - Lucy’s got a complete thing about cats. 

Lucy - So I may have described big cats as I will go with sultry in the past. Yeah.

Dannie - Oh, sultry. Okay. Well now it makes perfect sense.

Jen - So I mean, I'm going a bit different to you. So I'm going with obviously I'm going to marry the Wicked Witch of the West because she's probably my soulmate. We can share wardrobes. It's going to be perfect. I'm going to shag Oz, The Great and Powerful. He's a bit of a douche, but probably tolerable. And then I'm just going to get rid of the Cowardly Lion because, like our earlier character, he seems like a bit of a drip.

Dannie - Oh, that's fair. I did think of one. I'm not sure how you all feel about it. Obviously, I love Lord of the Rings. Big Lord of The Rings fan. So I'm not going to go for the obvious Lord of the Rings. So it's shag, marry, avoid Gandalf, Gimli, or I mean, I was going Merry or Pippin because they’re kind of just interchangeable, aren't they? We’ll go Merry. Merry, Gimli or Gandalf. 

Lucy - I feel I’d shag Gandalf. Clearly, whats coming off of this is I have a thing for wizards given that I'd shag The Wizard of Oz and Gandalf. I think I would kill. Oh, I don't know.

Lex - Lucy. Why are you hesitating? Merry and Pippin are children.

Lucy - Yeah, yeah, yeah, I’d marry Gimli then and kill off other two. But I feel bad because I do feel that they bring something to the table. They're not like, you know, nothing characters.

Dannie - I like before I was, you know, found actual grown men attractive, I really fancied Pippin from Lord of the Rings for a really long time. Which says a lot about me, but I, I stand by that. He's a handsome chap. Yes. It's a little sad that you'd kill them.

Lucy - Yeah, I'd kill them. But I don't feel good about it. You know, I'm not. I'm not emphatic in my decision.

Lex - No, I'm pretty emphatic about it. I feel like I would marry Gandalf because I feel like if you don't want somebody who can make dragons out of fireworks, then why don't you? Shag Gimli? Because he's kind of got a bit of an animalistic kick. Yeah. And I feel like Merry and Pippin couldn't grow a hair on their chin, let alone a hair on a hair on their chest. So not. Not for me, man children, no.

Jen - I am completely with you. Like, that was 100% my thinking, although I did also think marry Gandalf because if I don't want to wash up he can just magic it away but yes I'm there with you.

Lucy - Great great choice of reasons and responses there. I feel like the rest of my days is going to be spent thinking of other shag marry kill scenarios. We need to have a WhatsApp group that we just drop these into. Listeners as well, if you have any other suggestions for shag marry kill characters, please do email them into us at podcast@thetandemcollective.com

But Dannie, thank you so much for joining us today. Been so lovely and hilarious chatting to you.

Dannie - Thank you much for having me. This has been… it's been a lot of fun.

Lucy - And for everybody listening, you can catch Dannie’s podcast about the characters her guests would invite to their own dinner parties at A Novel Evening. Thank you. Bye bye.

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Jaide - As always, we're open to your feedback, so please do hit us up @tandemcollectiveuk on Instagram or using the hashtag #tandemcollectivetalks. If there’s anyone content creator wise or industry superstars or your favourite author that you think we should feature in the podcast then let us know. 

Bye!

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