Tandem Talks: The Publishing Hopeful Episode

Jen - Hello and welcome to the Tandem Collective Talks podcast.

Lex - Tandem Collective celebrates books, film, TV, podcasts and more with our global community.

Lucy - We’re Jen, Jaide, Lucy and Lex, members and friends of Team Tandem. You might already know us from Instagram or TikTok, but if not, it's great to meet you and welcome.

Jen - We're here to chat to you about what's new in the world of books, publishing and film, interview some of your favorite authors and hear your thoughts on what you're reading and watching at the moment. 

Jaide - You can find us at @tandemcollectiveuk on Instagram and also @tandemcollectiveglobal

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Lex - Hello everybody and welcome to the final episode of the Tandem Collective Talks Season two. Today we've got a very publishing hopeful themed episode for you, full of interviews from lots of friends around the publishing industry. But of course, first I'm here with Jen and the lovely Lucy Jones, and we're going to have a little bit of a chat about our journey into publishing.

So Jen, let's go to you first. Did you always know that you wanted to work in books or at least books adjacent?

Jen - No. So, before I came to Tandem, I was not doing anything book-adjacent, really. I was working in the third sector and then was one of Tandem's kind of O.G. influencers, had been really involved with Tandem on and off for a few years.

Lex - Can you just tell us what the third sector means? Because I know what you did before this job, and I didn't know that it was called the third sector.

Jen - Okay. Yeah. So the third sector is voluntary sector. So charity. So basically I worked in charity before. Yeah. I've been working with Tandem kind of on and off doing fun bits and bobs and eventually I think it was actually it was you and Naomi said to me, Lex, can you just come to Tandem? So I thought, Well, why not?

Lex - I mean, seems, seems like a perfectly reasonable request on my part. I think. But you've always been bookish, haven't you?

Jen - Always been bookish. Always been bookish, yes. So I've been bookish since I was a child and was writing book reviews, I'd done a bit of writing, content writing, always done lots of work with, kind of words and writing. Yes, it wasn't a huge leap. 

Lex - And what about you, Lucy? You have been at Tandem a little bit longer than than Jen, I think. 

Lucy - Yeah. So about two and a half years now, I think it was March 2020 when I first ran my first read along. I remember it literally coincided with the start of the pandemic and I was introduced to Tandem through Naomi. We studied together. We actually did our English Lit undergrads together. That was how we met.

So our whole friendship really was based on this shared love of books, and obviously she has founded Tandem, is our wonderful director and then yes, she approached me when I was on maternity leave at the time and asked if I wanted to do… She walked me through what the structure of a readalong looks like. And I was like, Oh yeah, sounds that sounds great.

Did it as more of like a hobby in the early days and of course with the pandemic, you know, everything was closed. People had more time at home, more time to read. And I just loved it. And I think I was like, Oh my God, the idea that I could make this my livelihood one day. But it just seemed so, like such a win.

So long story short, I was in higher education before this. Went back to my old job after my maternity leave, and then always kind of kept the foot in the door with Tandem - a) because it was an opportunity to keep reading new books but also to keep connected with the rest of the team. And I think I always knew at some point that I really wanted to try and make that leap to do it on a full time basis.

And it's been just over a year now since I did take the plunge and move into freelance life. And I'm so glad I did. 

Jen - I think it's really interesting that obviously all of us on that were hugely bookish and books were our reason for coming to Tandem. But then as soon as anyone gets involved with Tandem in any way, part time or just in more of a hobby way, it's only a couple of months and then you know that they're going to be fully a part of the team.

Nobody can resist the lure of the team. 

Lucy - Yeah, completely.

Lex - And how do you both feel that… Luce, you mentioned it a bit just then when you said that it felt like such a win that you can make books your livelihood, or I think that's very much a kind of theme running through young people getting jobs in publishing at the moment. How do you guys see yourselves and your jobs in relation to the themes and issues that we know run through the kind of publishing industry?

Jen - So I think that we are quite lucky that we are almost more in control of our own burnout. We know that burnout is such a huge problem across the whole of the publishing industry and that particularly people who are in-house feel so tied to their workload. Whereas being freelancers, we have slightly more control over that. Although I know that across the team we put a lot of pressure on ourselves. The downsides, I mean, I would say probably the downsides of any freelance life in that, you know, if we want to go on holiday, we have to plan it out, we don't get holiday pay, that kind of thing. But another upside as well is that with needing to pitch for campaigns, you will more often find yourself working on a book that you really love.

It's not just whatever is being published is yours and you have to push it. If you really don't like it, there's probably somebody else on the team that will take it. And you really are putting yourself forward for your work. 

Lucy - Jen, you're so right. I think the issues that we all know do exist in-house or in any PAYE job could still exist within Tandem. But there is more, there's more control. People have got more autonomy and the ability to say yes to or turn down work, you know, based on their capacity, based on what else they have going on in their personal lives. So it's a massive shift. You know, making the move to a completely freelance setup. But everybody on the team, I think, you know, we would all agree the pay off is 100% worth it.

Lex - Okay, great. And then my next question and probably my last question before we move into our next interview is, would you consider yourself as working in publishing or not?

Jen - Yeah. So certainly in this part of what I do, I would. I would say that we are quite often taking on campaigns where if we weren't doing them, they would be done in-house, obviously, and so we're doing exactly the same role somebody in-house would be doing. And they certainly would consider themselves to be in publishing. That said, I think the beauty of being a freelancer is that I don't exclusively consider myself to work in publishing.

The third sector is still very important to me and I know that there are other work areas that I want to explore, so I certainly do consider that some of my work is in publishing, but that's not the only box I fit into. 

Lucy - I think as well it’s how Tandem has evolved. You know, the steps that we've taken as a business like I know all of our clients have predominantly been publishers, but we also work with film and TV clients. And more recently we started to work with events and do marketing for, for event companies. So yeah, I mean I suppose in answer to your question, yes, I would say I do work in publishing, but that's but we're not limited to just the publishing sector. But it's so funny that my dad tells everyone I work in publishing and I've always been a bit like, well, it's marketing for publishers really.

But yeah, it definitely goes beyond that.

Lex - I think it's really interesting because I do feel like I shouldn't say that I work in publishing even though I do. Like 95% of the work that I do is on books, about books, for books, but it feels like I because I have never worked in-house at one of the Big Five, I shouldn't be allowed to say that I work in publishing, which of course is a completely made up construct that I've just made up in my head.

And I wonder if any kind of like publishing hopefuls feel like this, that if they are not. Jude Law in The Holiday reading a manuscript in bed with a red pen that they haven't made it into publishing. And I think we as a team are kind of prime examples that that’s just not true. 

Jen - Do you think though Lex that's because publishing is now, I really see it as such a buzzword. So I think probably like PR was in the nineties where all of the younger women wanted to work in PR, wanting to go into publishing now is seen as such a kind of a buzz word, shiny, shiny thing.

So to say I actually do that it feels a little bit unreal.

Lex - Yeah. And I think to go back to your previous point, it's also so much of a catch all like I work in publishing, but what does that actually mean? Do you work in rights? Are you in editorial or are you in the art design, in production? What like you could work in publishing and actually never have anything to do with the words written on the page of a book ever.

Jen - Yeah.

Lex - Which is insane.

Lucy - But such a good point, as well Jen. It now makes me think is publishing sexy?

Jen - Yes I would say publishing is very sexy.

Lex - I think there's a duality to it. I think publishing like to Jen's point of being like a bit of a moment. Yes, it's sexy. But I think also because we are aware of the issues and the concerns, things like the diversity and inclusion of the in-house industry, things like burn out within the in-house industry. We know that it definitely has unsexy elements of it also. 

So in essence, the publishing industry is a mixed bag and there is no right way into it and no right way to your dream role and to speak on that further, we have Chelsea Graham, who is the editor in chief of The Publishing Post, which is a fantastic resource, whether you are a publishing hopeful or publishing living it real life.

And the wonderful Ella Watkins, who is the senior publicity manager at Michael Joseph Books. So stay tuned for that interview coming up next. Thanks, team. 

Hey there. It's Lex here with a reminder of how important it is to rate, review and subscribe to this podcast on your preferred podcast player. We would also love to hear what you think and which episodes your favorite hit us up on podcast@thetandemcollective.com

Now back to regularly scheduled programming. Ella and Chelsea, thank you so much for joining us today. My first question is going to be a super easy one. I'm going to cast your mind back to your own childhoods, were they bookish? Were you a voracious reader as a child? Ella, should we start with you?

Ella - Yeah, I think probably I was. My whole family's very bookish. I used to love going to the library every weekend with my mum and getting my kind of stack of books I'd work my way through. And I loved, I must have been about 12 or something when I went through a stage of just reading Jodi Picoult and my mum was like, Do you not want to read anything, maybe a little bit more young or like fun and joyful?

And I was like, ‘No, I really love reading My Sister’s Keeper.’ So I was kind of reading things 

that I, you know, I was always reading and then I think probably my brother says, this is because we got TVs in our bedrooms when we were about 15, 16, I just stopped reading. But I did do English A-Levels. It can't have been that bad but yeah I stopped reading in bed and wasn't that kind of I wasn't queueing for the library to open when I was a teenager.

Lex - You know, when you were going to say, Jodi Picoult I would have put money on you saying Jacqueline Wilson.  I feel like that's where all of our real reading starts.

Ella - Yeah, I was a huge Jacqueline Wilson fan, but again, always the really dark ones. I mean, they're actually kind of all quite dark, aren’t they? 

Lex - Well, actually, on a podcast episode a couple of weeks ago, we were saying that the people who read Jacqueline Wilson grow up to read Jodi Picoult, like that transition makes sense.

Ella - Oh My God, yeah. That's so interesting. Interesting.

Lex - Yeah, it's like that's a natural progression for me as a reader. But sidebar, have you read Mad Honey, out in November?

Ella - No.

Lex - It's amazing. Yeah, it's Jodi Picoult's next book, co-written with Jennifer Finney Boylan. It's amazing. I can't wait for it to come out.

Ella - Okay, Mad Honey. 

Lex - Mm-hmm, put it in diaries, November 18th, somewhere around there.

Ella - Okay, I'm on it.

Lex - Chelsea, my love. What about you? Bookish childhood? 

Chelsea - I mean no one else in my family really reads at all, so I didn't really grow up, with, like, stacks of kind of books everywhere. But I do remember, like, we would go to the library on like a Sunday, on days when Mom wasn't at work. Like, we'd walk up to the library and like, I remember, like, distinctly remember taking out books and, like, having to carry them back home, like walking with a stack of books.

I feel like probably not until I was maybe in like year five or six, like towards the end of primary school when I kind of had access to like the school's library, just like every day I could just bring home a book and there was no one really there to be like ‘No, don't take the books’ because all the librarians were ‘yeah, sure, take as, take as many as you want.’ And then you get home and you're like, your whole room is now full of books. 

Then I think, I guess like I did like the typical yeah, like Jacqueline Wilson, probably every single one of those books at some point passed through my room. Same with like John Green. That was quite a quick progression. But yeah, like and then I think probably similar. I feel like I stopped reading probably when I went to… maybe a few years into secondary school when you're kind of like doing things. I was doing after school clubs and I guess I just kind of stopped. But again, similar to before, like I was still going to the library. So yeah, like I definitely think it slowed. Like since I was in school, I think I was just kind of but then I did A-level too and GCSE so it didn't stray too far. It just probably wasn't my main focus in those middle years.

Ella - And also I think probably tied into that, you then are doing it for GCSE and A-level. When you have to read, you’re being given these texts by, you know, pale male and style and you're like, ‘Well, this isn't going to make me love books’.

Chelsea - Yeah. Because then you were forced to read the ones that you hate and then you in your head, your subconscious is like ‘Well, if I am not enjoying this, then I don't want to pick up another book because it's not part of the syllabus. And I'm not like, I've got things I have to read, I don't want to read.

And yeah, same with university like I did a lit degree and I feel like that made me hate reading because I was having to read. Apart from your dissertation, it's pretty much reading books that you're told to read, and actually they weren't books that I would choose. So then I feel like it forced me further away. It was only when I maybe left it a few months after my degree and I read the first book in probably years for fun.

I was like oh yeah, I remember. I like this, I like reading. I’d just kind of forgotten that I do.

Lex - I completely know what you mean about the guilt at university. You know, if I'm not reading a course book, what am I doing? And I also remember only being able to, like, really struggle to get through maybe a book a week. Whereas at my most voracious I'm like two/ three books a week now. 

Okay. So you guys work in publishing as well. How many books are you reading a week?

Ella - One, if I'm lucky, yeah. But also one that's not if it's work related, but that I kind of disregard that as like technically not what I want. Like I obviously want to read, but it's not what I would choose to read in sort of like leisure. So then even once you take away work stuff probably like I'm lucky if I do like two and a half a month.

Lex - Mm-hmm.

Chelsea - Yeah. I think similar to be honest.

Lex - You guys both discovered libraries fairly early on, it sounds like. And actually I would say I've only just come into my library stride like I have just discovered Libby and BorrowBox, and now I'm suddenly like ‘Hang on, I can get audiobooks for free?’

Chelsea - I don't use any of these now.

I should be. I just. I'm obviously just forgetting them and then my TBR pile is already toppling over, I don’t need to add another stack to it.

Lex - That's the only way that I can get through my books because I've got, I'm always reading something as a digital PDF, I'm always reading something physically and I'm always listening to something at the same time. It's the only way that I can get through is by separating the formats. I can't read two physical books at the same time.

Ella - No, me neither, I get confused. Even if they are completely, wildly different genres, I'll start like pulling characters from the other one and I'm like, hang on a minute, how is there a detective in my chick flick, what's going on? I'm so confused. So yeah, I'm definitely the same. It has to be in different formats, otherwise I get so confused.

Lex - That's actually a really interesting point, Chelsea, that you raised though. You wouldn't necessarily have chosen your work books as pleasure reading books. What would you guys say the ratio is for you? Because I feel like there's a bit of a myth that as soon as you get into publishing, you get to work on all of your dream books for the rest of your life and you only get to work with your favorite authors.

How do you balance that?

Chelsea - I’d probably say for me, I'm probably lucky in that I can kind of pick and choose the books I work on. Just because I'm at an assistant level. I kind of just say, Oh, can I pinch that from you? And then it's kind of like, Yeah, sure, like, go ahead. Whereas once I'm kind of move in my career I’m sure, I'll have to narrow down.

But I mean, I feel like I'm in a really luxurious position right now where I can just kind of say, Oh, that one's cool, can I have that please? And then it tends to be things I like, but there are definitely books that I work on that you kind of read and you’re acutely aware that it's not something that you would naturally read, but I think that makes you kind of, you can scrutinize it a bit more.

So like when I read, I’m reading to cast an audio and I feel like I notice things that perhaps if it was your favoured genre and something you were reading constantly that were like tropes of the genre you'd perhaps ignore. Whereas when you're kind of new to it, you're kind of, you notice things a lot more. So it just does well to broaden what I'm reading. But I definitely feel it when I'm not reading something that's naturally what I'd go towards.

Lex - No, that makes total sense. Ella, how do you feel? Obviously as Senior Publicity Manager, you've got so many books coming through your hands and on your screens. How many of them would you say you would have chosen to read?

Ella - I think because my division and my and the imprints that I work on, we do a real mix. So, you know, I'm working across nonfiction and fiction. So there's a real, I don't have to read kind of back to back thrillers or back to back romcoms, which on their own I might enjoy, but kind of you can get then caught in a bit of a cycle of reading the same stuff.

So it's quite nice because I get to mix it up. I do a lot of cookery, I do a lot of kind of personal development, self-help, nonfiction, and then I do do kind of psych thrillers or commercial fiction, literary fiction. So actually, you know, most of the stuff I read I do enjoy and I think, you know, not everything that you get to work on you like you like doing.

And I don't get to pick everything that I work on. If something comes through that I love the look of, you know, I can say, Oh, please can I do the PR on this one? And most of the time, you know, we are then allocated that and so I can but I like having that, that variety.

Lex - Yeah, that sounds great. That kind of element of variety is the spice of life keeping you on your toes across the board.

Perfect. Okay, so the next myth that I would love to have a chat with you guys about is that there are so many publishing hopefuls who are trying to break into the publishing industry, and some of them are falling down because they are ‘it's dream job or nothing’ and they're all gunning for…I want to be an editor tomorrow. I want to be, you know, senior publishing manager tomorrow. Where are you guys in your dream job journey? Have you been there? Has that changed? Has your dream job changed as you've moved through your career? Ella, do you want to start us off on this one?

Ella - I don't know what my dream job is. I don't know what that is. I'm just you know, I'm not necessarily a particularly goal oriented person. And I don't look, I'm not like, where am I in five years time, which is maybe sometimes a bad thing, because then I have moments where I think, what the hell am I doing across every platform of life?

But for the most part, I just think, you know, am I happy with where I'm at now and what do I want more of now and how can I get that? And I think I never knew, you know, I didn't even really know publishing at all. And when I you know, the only thing I ever thought of, which is what you just said, so many people just assume publishing is editorial.

And obviously, if you think about it, of course, there’s more to it. You know, of course someone's designing a cover and someone's made that poster and someone's made sure it's printed and, you know, but you don't really think about it. And I think I had no idea. And I kind of had a lucky fall into it. And then I think when my first job was an internship and I didn't even know on the first day when I turned up what department I would be in, I just said yes.

And then they were like, You're in the comms team. I was like, Great, lovely.

Lex - That sounds awesome. What can I do?

Ella - Exactly. 

Lex - Well, that's interesting. Chelsea, how about you?

Chelsea - Yeah, I think.

I feel like it's always a thing that people say to you before you get into the industry. It's like, oh, you know, I just fell into my job. And you're always like, ‘Oh, that's the last thing I want to hear.’ Like, I want to hear, like, something else. But actually it's so true. And I was exactly the same, I was in an editorial assistant role before in a magazine publishing.

So, like, it's so adjacent. And then at that point I was just kind of applying for like I was applying for editorial but I was also applying for other things and really I didn't really know what I wanted at all, but I thought, ‘Oh, editorial’ like as everyone does. And then I got the role in audio. And now a year on, I couldn't think of a department I'd rather least be in the editorial, like having obviously been within the company and like worked in audio and stuff. And I would never have put myself as someone that would work in audio. Like I, I listened to audiobooks before, but like I wasn't, I wasn't ever looking for audio jobs around. Like I just kind of got the job and then I was like, well, I'm quite happy to like learn and see how this goes.

And then actually after like two months, I was like, ‘Yeah, this, this works’. But I would never have thought it would work. And yet now I look, I speak to editorial assistants and see them around the office, and I just think I couldn’t do that. I absolutely could not. And I'm really glad that actually I just fell into something and then it was something that I would just never have done. And I think that's like always a thing that you don't want to hear as a publishing hopeful. Like, I didn't want to hear it, but like applying for things that you don't necessarily know because you don't know what the job is going to entail until you do it.

Like you can chat to people in certain publishing houses, but everything is different. Like it's different across audio, across publishing houses, and all of the roles are slightly different. So an editorial assistant in a big publisher will be completely different to one in a small publisher because you're just across, you've got more to do in a small publisher so you might not be restricted to be just doing admin or just doing assisting someone.

You might actually be doing a lot more in a small publisher, having kind of saying, I only want to apply for editorial roles in one very specific thing is quite limiting because it might not be the same everywhere and then you might get into it and realize there might be another role that you fall into that much better suits your personality once you realize what that job entails because it might not be what you think it is on face value.

And I think that was something I learned like really quickly. And then very soon after, anybody that kind of said about getting publishing, I said actually just try things that you don't necessarily think of because you may love it and you just wouldn't have even thought that before because I wouldn't have chosen audio given the choice initially, I wouldn't have. 

Ella - So true. 

And I also think you can really once you're once you, you know, you've done something you can really move around, you know, like the experience is so transferable. When I was going for publicity assistant jobs, I applied for publicity assistant marketing assistant, comms assistant. I applied to be an agent's assistant at a literary agency. And, you know, they were all, if I'd have got any of them, I then would have learned that particular skill, which would have made me a better, you know, if I did marketing assistant for a year, that would have made me a better publicity assistant because I understood what goes on in that department or you know, I think I've spoken to a lot of publishing hopefuls and, you know, they're trying to get a job alongside it. And I'm like work in a bookshop because it's so good to then come into a publishers and you have been a bookseller. That is not wasted experience at all. It's all transferable. And having just an understanding of the industry as a whole is so beneficial.

Lex - I completely agree and I think that kind of lateral job jumping to get that experience was something that I didn't really realize was happening until I started to speak to people in industry and until I started to work with people and then they themselves would leave and go work a different publishing house or go somewhere else or do a slightly different job.

And I'm like, ‘Oh, okay, this is doable’. And it's a really great suggestion for anyone who's trying to get their kind of foot in the door, as it were.

Ella - Massively. And also. Sorry, just going on a ramble.

Lex - No, go for it.

Ella - We have so many people. So I, my first job was a publicist in publishing, but after a year, I left it and I then was doing stuff completely not connected to publishing. And I worked for a PR agency doing literally consumer PR for, you know, a dating website, an omega three supplement, nothing connected, not even arty.

And then I got a job. I applied for my well, it was the publicity manager job where I'm at now and I had all the relevant experience like, you know. Yes, I didn't necessarily know publishing that well, I’d only done a year. And my boss said ‘Oh, do you know how to do a PR campaign for fiction?’ I said ‘No, I don't. But I know how to talk to the media. I know how to do a press release. I am good with people. I know X, Y and Z and I can learn how to do a fiction campaign’. And she gave me the job. And you know, there's other people here who've never worked in publishing, but someone's come from the Tate art gallery. They've never had any publishing experience.

They've got marketing experience or they've got copywriting experience or general kind of comms or PR. And it's all those skills.

Lex - You’re so right. It's about cherry picking up as much as you can as you go along the journey to kind of build out that amazing backlog of experience and skills. And I'm so aware that we're running out of time, but I’m just going to squeeze in two more questions, if I can. The first one being very much linked to that kind of point of picking up experience and skills where you can.

Do you guys think that being personally on social media and involved in things like BookTok or Bookstagram, how does that support your journey as a publishing hopeful into the publishing industry? Chelsea, do you want to start us off on that one?

Chelsea - Yeah, I suppose. I think it is not necessary 100%, it's not. If you're not a social media person then it's not worth forcing it, because that won't be something that you'll want to be going into in terms of that side of, if you're not interested in social media, then that's fine. But I do think that it just has a unique ability to put you in front of people that matter in terms of like on book Twitter, Bookstagram, BookTok, there are people on those platforms that are hiring or they are just people that you will come across in the industry and people knowing your name is never a bad thing and if that’s because you've got a really cool, esthetically pleasing Bookstagram, then that's no different from you having a profile on Twitter where you chat to people and you connect with loads of other people, and if it's purely just because they see your name, and then in a flurry of applications, they've seen that name and then they've seen your Bookstagram then it's a representation of you, more so than it may be a CV can be. And while I don’t think it's necessary, I do think that it just adds an extra dimension and it's really accessible as well. Like not a lot of things for gaining experience in publishing are accessible. There are certain things you can do but social media is one that you can do for free in and around things that you have.

If you've got a full time job, it's is easy to kind of put around your other commitments, making it an easy thing to kind of add something extra to your application without having to do an internship where you’re not getting paid, having to find supplementary roles that are quite, quite difficult to get is something that you can kind of do without much starting ground, which I do think is a major bonus for those kind of platforms.

Lex - Yeah, I think the element of it being free is a huge, a huge deal.

Ella - Yeah, I totally agree with Chelsea and I think also, you know, as you've said, if it's not, if it's not authentic and you feel it makes you like, you know, incredibly nervous that you don't want to do it, then don't do it. But I think even if to be honest, even if you're a lurker on it and you can just see it, follow people. You don't have to post, you don't have to comment but follow for example, if you want to get into publicity, you know, follow the big PR directors, follow the imprints, follow like literary editors and you can see which book campaigns are doing well and where are they, what's happening? What are they doing? What is the marketing, the PR or, you know, which authors are shouting about this?

You'll be the first to see about job ads.

Chelsea - It makes those applications more authentic as well, as a lot of the applications for, say, marketing or comms will say, tell us what campaign you liked, and that is going to come across way more authentic interpretation if you've seen it as it unraveled, rather than kind of going back and trying to find posts or tweets or news campaigns when they came out and then trying to piece it together just as a kind of example, if you saw that kind of live and how people are interacting with it and how it went down with fans or audiences, you're way more likely to have a better view on how that went rather than backdating the research. 

Lex - Such a good point. You don't have to be a creator, you just need to be aware.

Chelsea - Yeah, yeah, completely.

Lex - That's really useful. Okay. One last question. And we've talked a little bit today about some myths that we would bust for publishing hopefuls, but what would be the one piece of advice or something that you have learned in your journey that you would love to impart to publishing hopefuls?

Ella - I'd probably say to reach out to people, even if you get like imposter syndrome, because the amount of people that you can talk to that know, not everyone that you talk to is going to offer you a job of of course, like that's kind of a given. But if, you know, pretty much everyone in the industry is kind of open to chatting and open to giving you advice, and it might just be a nugget of advice that you don't, you're not expecting them to give you.

And actually, it comes to you when you're writing an application or it's just something that you wouldn't have seen on kind of like blogs and things because it's coming straight from the person that's doing that job. It might be that they know that a job openings coming, but it might be that once you form that relationship, six months later, they get in touch, say, ‘Oh, I thought of you for this’, or because I think that happens more often than people think.

It’s not I’m going to offer you a job because I've seen your Twitter profile. It's just I thought of this you might be interested in applying or they've just spoken about you internally. You might not even know. It might just be a case of ‘oh I had a really good’ that just chatting with their friends who also happened to be directors and then they just kind of saying, ‘I was chatting to this hopeful and she was really excited and really keen’ and I think like just in general conversation that might not even be with any intention, but just chatting to people will make things happen even if it isn't, I'm going to give you a job here and now because I do think those interactions are really, really helpful. And everyone is open to chatting, everybody always kind of says, Oh, the industry is really nice. They are. If you send someone a DM, even if they're the manager of an imprint that you absolutely love, that you're really, really scared to send them a DM, the worst they can say is I'm really busy or not reply and that's not a negative against you if they don't reply. It's not like they're going to think badly of you because you reached out. You're being proactive. I don't think there is anything negative that can come from reaching out to somebody and just saying, Hey, I've got this question or I'd really love to chat if you have a ten minute coffee next time you're around.

I don't think anything bad can come from that. You can, you're only set to gain.

Lex - I think it's a really good shout.

Chelsea - I completely agree. I think mine is kind of similar and it sounds really simple but like be nice, be up for helping people and be up for being helped. And if you get work experience opportunity for example like offer to do something like you know, I don't think.. I'm careful about saying be nice because I think, you know, it shouldn't just be on that like it should be on your talent and everything as well, but you could be really talented and be a complete asshole and no one will want to work with you like this is such a small industry and you know, there might be someone who is an assistant editor and then they will very quickly go up the ranks and be your manager. And if you are an asshole to them, they will remember. So I just think, you know, like be nice, give someone a free book, trade books, go to someone's event, support them and you'll get back. Don’t be an asshole. That's my motto.

Lex - Your points together work perfectly because it is that, it's be memorable for the right reasons to your point, Ella. And then Chelsea, people will bring you up in conversation because you were friendly and sweet and amicable and helpful and all of the other things.

Chelsea - And that works in the opposite way as well. Like to build on Ella’s point like if you are a dick then that will be brought up in conversation because if you're offering up your time as someone that is senior or even someone that's not, even as an assistant. Assistants talk to people that are senior. We all share offices.

If you're chatting to the other assistants within earshot of managers or directors and you're talking about a really bad experience you have when you try to offer someone your time. We all work in the same rooms. It doesn't stay secret for long, so it's kind of like it works in exactly the same way. Like you either be nice or get known for being not nice.

It kind of is exactly the same.

Lex - Oh yeah. Word spreads like wildfire. You know, we're we're in we're in the communications industry. It's what we're good at. Yeah. Okay. Thank you so much for coming to hang out with me this afternoon. And thank you so much for giving up your time. One last question. What are you reading right now? And can we have a recommendation?

I know it's the the question that you probably get asked the most. 

Chelsea - I'm reading a book for audio, called Hotel 21 by Senta Rich. And I think it will be out in March. Don't quote me on that though, might be January, sometime in early 23, but it's really, really good.

Lex - You got a genre for that one?

Chelsea - Well it’s about a hotel cleaner. She likes to steal things.

Lex - Oh, okay.

Chelsea - Mix inn some female relationships, bonding, it is really, really lovely.

Lex - Hmm. Interesting. I have to pick that one up. Okay. Ella, what have you got for us?

Ella - I am reading a non-work one, and I just had to quickly Google who wrote it. It came out a couple of years ago and it’s Supper Club by Laura Williams. Really, really good. And it's about like women and consumption and kind of being made to be small in society. And they’re like nope, I'm going to hold a supper club and we're going to eat and feast and take up space.

And so yeah, I would highly recommend. 

Lex - Amazing. Sounds like two great recommendations to add to our TBR shelves as if we could possibly find anything else there. But listen, thank you so much for coming to hang out with me this afternoon and giving up your time. I really appreciate it.

Ella - Thank you.

Chelsea - Thank you.

Lex - Thank you so much to Ella and Chelsea for joining us for this episode's chats. And now allow me to hand you over to our own publishing hopeful Georgie Bewse, who since this interview has gone and landed just one of her dream jobs inhouse publishing as she leads our lightning rounds with Joe Thompson, deputy art director Sam Eades, Editor Orion Books and Eleanor Rose, Marketing and PR Assistant at Bonnier Books. Hello, Georgie Bewes.

Georgie - Hi Lex. Hey, everyone, I'm Georgie. You can find me at @bewesbooks. And as Lex said, I'm currently a campaign manager at Tandem, but I am looking to go into editorial in-house. So it's been really great to speak to so many interesting people in the publishing industry through this podcast.

Lex - So that's Georgie Bewes and these are your Lightning Rounds. The first one features Joe Thomson, the deputy art director for Fourth Estate, and William Collins.

Georgie - Okay, so first question when did you know you wanted to work in publishing? 

Jo - It was never really kind of a moment to me when I was like, ‘Oh, I want to work in publishing’. It was more that I saw a job posting for a designer role in publishing and thought, okay, that could be quite fun. I love books and it kind of went from that meeting.

Georgie - And how long did it take you to land your dream role? Do you have a dream role? What was your route in? 

Jo - Well, like I said, I saw the job posting. I applied for it. I actually knew some people who worked in publishing as designers, so I was able to kind of talk to them a bit about it. And for me, luckily it was quite smooth.

Yeah, I guess my dream role was always just to be a graphic designer, and the fact that I'm doing it in publishing is just a really added bonus. 

Georgie - And what's the stand out moment from your career to date, would you say? 

Jo - I would say moving to Australia, I quit my job and became a freelancer and didn't die of starvation, which. Yeah, that's amazing. Yes, that was great. 

Georgie - Brilliant. So in your opinion, what skills should publishing hopefuls look to hone, do you think? Obviously, it's very much depends on what they want to do. But for your role, what what skills would you? Do you think that publishing looks at? 

Jo -And I think having a good sense of typography is really important.

I see a lot of portfolios are really beautifully designed from an illustrative perspective, but I think knowing how to kind of position type because so much of what we do is that is really important. And also having a thick skin and definitely diplomatic skills. 

Georgie - So is there any advice that you would pass on from your freelance career thinking about kind of being freelance within publishing?

Jo - I would say just put yourself out there as much as possible. Use all of the social media that you can. So lucky to kind of have that element now and just yeah, meet as many people as you can keep in touch with as many people as you can and just try and get yourself out there. 

Georgie - That's great advice. I think that's great for every role in publishing. So what do you think the industry is missing at the moment? 

Jo - I would definitely say diversity and inclusion. I think there's been some steps to try and make it more diverse, but it feels like it rolls around in waves of people getting kind of like, Oh, we should be doing this. And then it simmers down again and then, yeah, without really any meaningful change.

Georgie -  Is that something you've noticed, particularly in the design and there or just in the industry in general?

Jo -  I would say in the industry in general, interestingly, I feel like design as a broader outside of publishing subject feels more diverse that within publishing it really isn't.

Georgie - So this one might not apply to you so much, but what are the key things that you look for in a candidate when hiring?

Jo -  I think having a good range of design work and I think ultimately being a real team player and being very friendly and approachable and eager to learn will get you really far. It is about personality. I think if you've got someone who's got a fantastic portfolio, but they're kind of a bit less willing to participate with lots of different areas of design, then it's harder than someone who's portfolio is maybe good, but they've got a real willingness to push it. 

Georgie - Great, interesting. So a bit of a change. What are you reading/listening to/watching at the moment?

Jo - So I'm reading Pachinko, which is great. Love it. I'm listening to The Hamish and Andy podcast, which is an Australian podcast. I love it, has me in stitches all the time. I've just finished watching The Terror on BBC, which is amazing, but you need a bit of a break after that.

Georgie - All of that sounds great. I haven't actually heard of that one. 

Jo - It's great. It's really good.

Georgie - I'm always looking for new recommendations and Pachinko is one of my favourite books. I absolutely love it. 

So finally, what is one piece of advice that you would give to publishing hopefuls? 

Jo - I would say just get yourself out there, like meet people. Like I said before, it's the same kind of thing as freelancing.

I think you just need to try and get your foot in the door, research the places that you want to approach, follow them on Instagram, engage. I think that's just the best way of doing it. 

Georgie - From a design perspective, what's your favourite book cover ever?

Jo - Oh wow. Okay. Well, the one that I feel like always stands out in my memory just at the beginning of my career.

I mean, thinking I'd really love to design something like that is, is A Short History of Tractors in The Ukraine. I love that. I think it's by John Gray. I remember seeing that I think when I was in my teens, thinking that is such a cool cover, I want to be able to do stuff like that.

Georgie - Oh, wow. I must be great. If it's really stuck in your memory. 

Jo - I feel like it's either a Brief History of Tractors in the Ukraine or it's a Short History. I haven't read it in years, but I loved that cover. I thought it was great. 

Georgie - Do you think that inspired you to want to work in/with books or? 

Jo - I definitely think it inspired me a lot in terms of when I was in publishing. That was kind of the illustrative style and the kind of design work that I wanted to be doing. 

Georgie - Is there anything that you wish people knew about your section of the publishing industry that they don't?

Jo - That is a great question. I guess it's kind of that some things take time.

There isn't just a button that you can press that says design. It's a bit more… it's a bit trickier than that sometimes. I think it's pretty much that. 

Georgie - That's great. 

Jo - I think that's one of those questions we'll come back to later and go, ‘Ah I should have said this’. 

Georgie - I have a question that’s not on any paper, but I just want to know at what stage of the kind of critical path are designers involved, are you there from acquisition and kind of designing or a bit later?

Jo - Well, I mean, for me, I design some of the pitch documents. So I'm like involved way before sight, which is great. It's always very nice when you're part of that team. But usually we do go to acquisitions and we actually just had a meeting today and kind of listened into what's happening. So it's nice hearing what's going on.

And again being part of it. Usually we are involved, I think 13 months ahead of pub, that's when they usually brief the covers and that's when we come on board officially. It can be at any stage, so it can be before full acquisition, just after acquisition. Yeah, sometimes it's just designing placeholders before they brief the covers. So yeah, it's fascinating.

Georgie - I don't really know much about the design section of the publishing, so it's so interesting hearing about it. 

Jo - Happy to share. 

Georgie - So let's jump right in with what is your job title and where do you work? 

Sam - So my job title is publisher and I work at Orion and I run the fiction team. 

Georgie - Great. And could you speak a bit more about your role?

What stage of the publishing pathway you're involved in, how early you're involved? What is a publisher? 

Sam - I mean, I'm all over all of it, essentially. So, I'm in the sort of editorial function and I'm involved at the very beginning of the process. So my job is to acquire books from agents or sometimes directly from authors, so to find writers for the list.

And then I oversee every part of the publishing journey from manuscript to publication. So that will be structural editing, line editing, and then ensuring that the book has a good copy, edit.

And proofread. I brief the cover, I write the copy, I pitch and position the books to my colleagues in-house. So publicity, marketing, sales, international and the rights team and I come up with, I drive the overall publishing vision for a title in collaboration with the author, and the agents, see it through to publication. But then just because a book is kind of out, there's a very kind of long tail of sales now with books and titles being rediscovered kind of years after they are published.

So throughout the book's lifetime, I'll be looking out for moments that we can drop the price or repromote or submit it for a prize or spot that it's trending on TikTok and rewrite the messaging around the book and that kind of thing. So an editor is a sort of the spider in the web maybe. And then just in terms of my title publisher, I also run a team of editors as well.

So line management, responsibility for a team of fantastic and talented editors.

Georgie - Wow, so it really oversees everything. And you just mentioned so many different things. Is there a favourite part of the process? What's that bit of the process that gives you that feeling of real buzz? 

Sam - My favourite part of the process recently is structural editing and just that feeling that you get once you finish the first read of a manuscript and of sort of catching all those kind of thoughts and feelings and sort of putting them down in a editorial letter and then talking actually with the author, I have fallen back in love with the craft of working directly with the text and working with an author.

So that's a bit of a job. 

Georgie - That’s lovely. So thinking back, when did you know you wanted work in publishing? 

Sam  -So I don't think I ever thought, Oh, I desperately want to work in publishing. I did an English degree, graduated and went home, worked on the checkout to earn some money, and then just did loads of internships at literary agencies and publishers.

And thought, oh, I like books. You know, there seems to be an industry that produces books. So, so that is how I got my reach into publishing, sort of enjoying books. 

Georgie - That's pretty common. How long did it take you to land your dream role/ are you in your dream role? And you talked a bit about it, a bit about your route in. 

How long did it take you to get there?

Sam -  So it took me seven years to find my dream role. So I initially, my first job was working at Transworld as a publicity assistant. So I had seven years working as a publicist, which I absolutely loved. And publicists do an amazing job, and it's an incredibly creative and strategic job. But the longer I worked in publicity, the more and more I thought, I want to be involved earlier in the publishing process.

So I was starting to have thoughts and ideas about covers for the books, publication dates, formats and edits. And I started to think, actually, I think I want to become an editor. And so I did a sideways move seven years ago from a publicity job into a sort of joint publicity and editorial role, then made the move solely after a year into becoming a fully fledged senior commissioning editor. 

Georgie - It's so interesting. I think everyone has a completely different route and I love hearing about people who move sideways in publishing because I think so often that that really is such a good way of doing it, especially as editorial roles, for example, are so competitive to go into entry level. And this is such a great way to do it. So next question is what is a stand out moment from your career to date? 

Sam - So I came up with the first was when I was a publicist. I worked on Neil Gaiman's novel The Ocean at the End of the Lane, and I petitioned Portsmouth City Council to change the name of the road to The Ocean at the End of the Lane, which they did.

And I got to go down to the unveiling ceremony with Neil and all of his family, and that was a sort of moment I'll never forget. And then more recently in a sort of editorial highlight was at Orion. I got the chance to start Imprint with Anna Valentine who’s now the MD, which was Trapeze Books which was quite a scary.. We got given a sort of blank page and were told to start a list. So we came up with the identity and kind of built a list and a vision and a strategy for that. And that was an amazing kind of creative fun, incredibly hard working time. And I absolutely loved it. 

Georgie - Well, those are amazing. I love the very change that's inspired us.

Is it still good that.

Sam -  it is!

Georgie - Oh, that's so cool. 

Sam - I think it's a very small road. 

Georgie - Kind of returning to a previous conversation about moving sideways in publishing. Do you think that's quite common? Is it more common than we might think from outside? 

Sam - I think so. And the more I remember when I moved from publishing to editor, a couple of people had kind of done it before.

The more people that do it, you start to think, Oh, I can do that as well. So yes, sometimes it's so hard to get an entry level position these days and I think every function, like we've got a fantastic assistant editor in the Orion fiction team who moved from sales. So she worked in sales and she wanted to be an editor and she made the jump and she's brought with her a wealth of experience about supermarkets and selling in.

So I think a sort of a bit of advice if people are listening, you know, if you can't get a job in the department that you want, there are lots of departments that can ultimately help you get your dream job. 

Georgie - Those skills are so transferable, I think. Great, speaking of skills. What skills should publishing hopefuls look to hone, do you think so?

Sam - It's not really a skill, but I would say something that I have found incredibly useful is resilience. Publishing is very unpredictable and that can be the highest of highs and the lowest of lows. And to have longevity and to protect yourself from those lows, I think it's really important for people to separate their sense of worth from the success or failure of a book.

So being resilient when you have those bad days, being able to sort of pick yourself up to celebrate the good days, I think is an incredibly important skill. 

Georgie - And which of your skills would you say is the most important to your current role? 

Sam - I think, again, it's really a skill, but I'm an incredibly positive person and, you know, a sort of a problem kind of comes up, I think, oh, you know, maybe this is a way that we can be creative and come up with a solution.

So I think having a positive outlook in the face of challenges has really helped me progress and also enjoying my job. 

Georgie - Yeah, I think that's really important as well. So looking at the flip side a bit, what is it that you think the publishing industry is missing at the moment? 

Sam - So I'm sure this will have come up a lot in your Q&As, but obviously ensuring that as publishers we have a diversity of kind of voices. I was thinking of my section of the list, my area is kind of crime and thrillers and we are actively trying to diversify our crime and thriller lists. Also making sure that we have writers of color representing sexualities, identities is incredibly important and is a conversation that we need to keep having.

So I would say people are doing lots of things, but we can always do more. And I was really excited to see the news about Charmaine and her sort of fantastic division that she's the managing director of Dialogue, which is such a positive step. 

Georgie - I saw that and Dialogue is such a brilliant imprint. I think it's a really, really great step and I guess it has to it's not just the authors that need to be diversified, I guess it's also the publishing teams. What would you say is your biggest sticking point or frustration maybe in your role? 

Sam - I like it when people are nice and professional,  and kind, and I think sometimes everyone is trying their best. So much of sorts of publishing is kind of out of our control.

Like you can't make millions of readers like buy a copy of a book. We can just do everything we can to sort of bring a book to market. And then, you know, ultimately it's sort of over  to the public. And I like it when people involved in the business are sort of collaborative and open and helpful and we all kind of feel part of the same team rather than adversaries that are on opposing sides. I think that's what I'd say is one of my frustrations. 

Georgie - That was very well put, I think very diplomatic. Yeah, brilliant. So what are the key things you look for in a candidate when you're hiring?

I guess it depends what the role is. But let's say in an entry level role.

Sam - It is and we've just recently sat in on a load of interviews for our editorial assistant, and I would say one of the key qualities is a knowledge of the list. And if the publisher that you are applying for also right from tailoring your sort of covering letter and you will see if you are applying for a commercial fiction imprint. Ensuring that you are up to date on what that publisher publishes. Some of their biggest authors, some of the newest releases that you recently read, you know, some commercial fiction books because you're probably going to get those in your interviews. So tailoring your CV to pull out experience that's relevant to that publisher, you're covering better. And then in the interview, just doing a little bit of background research into the publisher that you're applying for can go a long way.

Georgie - And what's one piece of advice that you have for publishing hopefuls? 

Sam  - So I had written here that this industry needs people like you. 

When I first applied to get my first round of interviews, you know, publishing was very much sort of seen as this sort of white, middle class, impenetrable fortress. And a lot has been done to challenge that perception. But there are still barriers. And I just want people to think that the industry needs people like you.

We need people who are TikTok readers. We need booksellers that have decided that they want to move into publishing. We need people that have done Masters courses, but we also need people that have just kind of graduated school. We need people who are maybe doing a second career change.

So I just hope that we can we continue to sort of challenge the perception that publishing is exclusive and for publishing hopefuls to think someone would be lucky to have me, that's what I'd like them to take away. 

Georgie - I think that's such brilliant advice. I feel like it's very daunting applying to publishing jobs, and you can tend to think that there's only one way in and I have to have this, this, this and this, this.

If, as if we can make the industry as diverse as possible, then it's obviously going to just make it better and cater to more people. I love that. So final two questions Is there anything that you wish people knew about your section of the industry, so the editorial department that they don't know?

Sam - Oh, again, you've got an off script question.

I think people do know this, but it's when editors make the time to read, you know, it would maybe there's a sort of perception that an editors working day is spent from 9 to 5 lying on the sofa reading a manuscript. No, it's not. A lot of that reading we have to do in our own time. So it's at the evenings, at weekends, it's, you know, on holiday.

So there is in my bit of the business a lot of extracurricular work that is in terms of reading and I'm sure people are aware of that, but it's always worth reminding people.

Georgie - Speaking of reading, what are you reading, listening to and watching at the moment? 

Sam - So I am reading I'm currently on holiday, I'm reading for pleasure and I am reading Lisa Jewell’s, entire backlist, I’ve read five Lisa Jewel novels and I'm loving them and I keep finding ones I have no idea about and I've read everything from sort of Ralph’s Party right through to The Family Remains. Have you read any?

Georgie - No, I haven't. But I know Lex is a huge fan.

Sam  -  I mean, Lex talk to me after this. Join the fan club. I'm watching. I have recently been binging Love Island, which I'm just obsessed with. And to be honest, I'm so devastated to finish it that I'm rewatching Season three. Amazing, tragic. Not actually this is terrible, but I'm not a big listener, but I am going to go away and listen to your podcast.

So that is what I will be listening to. 

Georgie - That is the correct answer. Oh, that's amazing. 

So finally, final question. Which book have you got coming out soon that you're really proud of and that we should keep an eye out for? 

Sam - Oh, that's a great question. How can I choose between my book children? A book that I'm sort of really proud of working on this book is Kathy Brown.

His new novel, which is coming out in October, and it's called Merilee Ever After. And it is a heartwarming and incredibly emotional story about families in all their kind of different shapes and sizes. And working with Kathy, it's been a new relationship. I took over her publishing in January, so she's someone as an author that I have been sort of getting to know and who is incredibly warm and creative and ambitious and has really inspired me to bring my best self to to work and to sort of, you know, to sort of motivate everyone to do everything we can on her book. 

So it's been an incredibly wonderful working relationship, so great author and also fantastic book. 

Georgie - Brilliant. What a great time and thank you so much.

Georgie - First and foremost, what is your job title and where do you work? 

Eleanor - So I'm a marketing and publicity assistant and I work at Bonnier Books UK in the Children's Division. 

Georgie - Okay. And could you speak a bit about your role? What do you do? What is the stage of the publishing critical path you're involved in? What is a marketer and publicity assistant?

Eleanor - Sure. So we are involved basically from the very beginning, we give our thoughts on an acquisition to say if we think it would fit the market. So if we like it, give initial ideas that we can present to the author and the agent on what we think we do in the marketing and PR division. We go up to publication, so we're planning things, we're running ads, we’re getting some buzz built, pitching it to press and then after publication we’re just monitoring those reviews, putting on events, that sort of thing.

So we're basically from start to finish, marketing and PR are involved. So marketing is a lot more sort of paid stuff, is advertising, is point of sale, which is press, whereas PR is a lot more sort of pitching, working with bloggers, doing events, festivals, that sort of thing. 

Georgie - Great. What would you say your favourite part of the process is? Whats the bit that gives you the buzz?

Eleanor - I think a lot of it does, to be honest. I think the events on the PR side is definitely really exciting because you see the books kind of come to life and you see the people behind it, like the authors and illustrators, especially with kids books, especially going to things that aren't necessarily book focused, like going to this weekend, for example, I'm going to like a festival, a children's festival, and it's part of it.

So I think going out and doing those sorts of things, a real like exciting part that gets you out of the office and working on the computer, which is definitely a fun part of it.

Georgie -  That sounds like fun. So going back a bit, when did you know that you wanted to work in publishing? 

Eleanor - To be honest, when I was younger, like a lot of people, I really wanted to be an author and I'm still living that dream.

But just have not written anything. One day I'll get there. But to be honest, it's a bit of a controversial one, so I didn't know that I really was publishing until I started working in publishing. And it was when I sort of started seeing the ads about on different websites and the way I got in, I saw it on an apprenticeship site.

And so it was kind of until I saw that, saw the descriptions literally a few years ago when I realized, actually, I didn't realize this was an industry that obviously existed. I didn't know anything about it. And so it was only until I was actually involved in it that I realized I wanted to work in publishing. 

Georgie - Great. So how long did it take you to land your dream role slash / are you in your dream role? Are you in your dream kind of career trajectory? And what was your route in? I'd love to hear a bit more about that. 

Eleanor - Yeah, sure. So as I said when I started doing these ads, I saw it was actually my mum that saw one on the apprenticeship website and that's the way I got in.

So I didn't go to university or anything. I went straight just I was working part time, saw this ad and went for it. I did an apprenticeship for a year and a half and at the same time I was employed by Bloomsbury. I was working predominantly in the production division, so I was employed as a production assistant at the same time as learning on the job.

But one day a week I was working in like the marketing and publicity division at Bloomsbury and I actually loved it and I did really enjoy my job in production. But when I was doing the marketing and PR, that was like, This is where I want to be long term. I was there for a couple of years and then I moved across to Bonnier Books UK, which is where I am now and yeah, this is, this is where I want to be.

This is where I get the most excitement from. This is where I feel like it's more me, it's more me focused. I mean, I enjoy it. So yeah, probably like doing a couple of years in production first, but now I feel like I'm where I want to be. 

Georgie - I think that's it's so interesting hearing about the different rates and I feel like everyone does it differently and it's just I think for publishing hopefuls out there, it's really good to know that, you know, you can kind of go in and then move sideways.

You don't have to just be applying to your dream role. It's great to have success stories. 

Eleanor - Yeah, definitely. I mean, I speak to so many people on my YouTube when I do interviews like this with them and people have gone to university and done like science, people have gone and done something completely different or they've been in a job that's totally different. I think it's it's not the case anymore where it's a strict route that everyone has to follow it. There's different paths out there. 

Georgie - Yeah, exactly. So this is a question that wasn't on the original list of questions. What is your favorite campaign that you've worked on to date? As a side note, we love your video on your work on E L Lockhart's campaign.

So not that you should say that that a favourite, but yeah. What is your favourite campaign that you've worked on? 

Eleanor - I think to be honest, I've always had a love for my first campaign. Just because it was my first one, it was like my baby. So it was Pip and Drip by Maggie Lee that are like these gorgeous board books that have got a cut through the whole of the book so you can see the life cycle of water and of a seed. And I think it was just more because it's I mean, they’re adorable books, obviously, but it was more of a turning point in my career when I was like, okay, I have my own sort of like ownership of this now, which I found really exciting. And I think that just tried to put my all into it.

Aside from that, I love helping the team on like the really, really big ones as well, such as E  L Lockheart’s A Family of Liars which is the prequel to When We Were Liars. When Women Were Dragons by Kelly Barnhil as well. Those ones where we're predicting a lot more sales, it's more commercial, we tend to have a higher budget. We can do a lot more creative things.

So although  I'm not necessarily working on it solely just me, it's more a team effort and I'm just sort of like helping with the little bits here in that they've been the ones to see how it can kind of compare to our usual campaigns. 

Georgie - Yeah, that must be so cool. It's kind of follows on. But what is a standout moment from your career to date, do you think?

Eleanor - One of the things is actually recent and it's not specific to this job, but this week, last week, The Bookseller published their youth issue. So I did an article for them. So I was like, Oh, I felt like proud, I guess, of getting into The Bookseller. It's one of those things. It's like, I've always wanted that and I was pleased to be able to get to talk to that.

And it was about getting into publishing and the fact that you can be young and you don't have to go to university and that sort of thing, and you can still be here. And so that was definitely a stand out. I've definitely got a few like I've got meeting celebs in the office as well. 

As I said, like taking ownership of my campaigns makes me feel like happy inside and again, like the events this year we've had YALC which I went to for the first time and just that was just fun from the planning stages to the very end of it when I was really, really worn out and my feet were aching. 

Georgie - I worked at YALC when I was doing an internship back in 2019 and it's very intense. 

So, completely intense. 

Eleanor - So worth it. And I just like I thrived then. 

Georgie - Great. So what skills do you think publishing hopefuls should look to hone? 

Eleanor - I think there are a lot, and it definitely does depend, obviously, on the department that you want to go into. A few just general ones that would work, whatever department you want to work in and, I'd say organization because you are bound to need to work on a spreadsheet, especially if you start entry level assistant positions and a bit of creativity as well.

Have something a little bit different about you and be able to come up with some creative ideas. And then lastly, communication and people skills, because the publishing industry is very collaborative. You work with other teams, you have authors, you work with agents, you actually have external suppliers, especially in things like marketing and PR. When you work with bloggers and influencers, it's really helpful to have those kind of people skills.

Georgie - Yeah. And which of your skills would you say is the most important to your current role? 

Eleanor - I think for marketing PR, definitely the communication and the people skills because I'm emailing people literally every day, calling people all the time. I think for PR you have to be used to phoning people up on the actual phone as well.

I think teamwork is really important as well because you're constantly brainstorming ideas with your team, seeing who comes up with, you know, a really nice idea that we can run ahead with and digital skills as well. So that includes like social media, but it also includes things like Photoshop, which is very useful. And just to say a lot of these skills I literally didn't have until I started working in these jobs.

So it's not a case of you have to be an expert in all of these. It's more of having an awareness and that's the ones that I tend to use the most. It actually is more this is what you will be using a case of you have to be you know, this inside out obviously is preferable to know a lot of it and to have some basic skills. But there's still stuff I'm literally learning this week that I didn't know before. 

Georgie - Yeah, exactly. Is there anything in your role that you were surprised by for not expecting? 

Eleanor - Oh, that's a very good question. I think in the position that I am now, I was surprised by the amount of responsibility I have.

I love it, don't get me wrong. But I think when you work at a smaller publisher, it really differs from what a role entails when you work at bigger publisher. So coming from a big one, coming and then coming into a smaller one, that definitely was some differences in terms of responsibility, but that means that you have a lot more ownership over things and that's really rewarding and you feel like you're actually making a difference.

So I think I was just kind of more surprised by that. Like the overall thing of how a big publisher can differ from a smaller or medium sized publisher. 

Georgie - Yeah, that's really interesting. Again, this is just me following on, but do you prefer one over the other? Do you like liking a big picture or a smaller picture? 

Eleanor - Yeah, I do.

I think the size that I am now, I see that sort of medium size where it's you do have budgets to be able to kind of like push the books as much as you can, but it's small enough to make a difference and you're not just like another, another name in the company, I think I wouldn't personally want to work at like a, you know, top five just because I think that you do get lost.

And I've heard lots of stories and I just think that being in a smaller company where people know your name, people recognize the work you're doing, you can make a difference. For me personally is what I prefer.

Georgie -  Yeah, great. So what do you think the publishing industry is missing at the moment? 

Eleanor - First thing comes to mind when I think about these is diversity. So diversity in employees, diversity in authors and diversity in book characters, that's probably the main thing that pretty much everyone can agree with. Having good pay is something that the industry is missing as well. That's not a secret. And then another thing I'm passionate about is having enough like wellbeing initiatives as well. So having enough to kind of support your staff in place both as an individual company but as a publishing industry as a whole.

Georgie - Yeah, definitely. I think everyone has said that pretty much and kind of similarly on a more personal level. Well, would you say that your biggest sticking point or maybe frustration in your role is?

Eleanor - I think when you are really passionate about a book and it's a really good book and the author is really lovely and you just see it and you want it to go really far and it doesn't because of  X, Y and Z.

I think that's hard to not take personally, and especially in marketing PR because it's like you put in so much effort, so many hours and to not see it getting the result that you wanted is quite hard because you just sort of want it to do how you imagined it when you first plan your campaign. And if it doesn't, I think that could be quite frustrating and it's like you might try loads of different things, but it's just not working and it's, you know, people just don't want to be buying things at the moment or it's not what people were expecting or just people aren't interested in that.

And it's definitely hard. Like as I said said, it comes more of a personal thing because you think that that was like my baby. I worked on that, why isn’t it working, but it's kind of part of the process. You learn from it, especially if it's part of a series, you learn from it, you move on to the next one.

Georgie - But that is definitely frustrating. Definitely. I think just accepting that some things are out of your control. 

So so the next question is, what is one piece of advice you have for publishing hopefuls? 

Eleanor - My first piece of advice would just be to subscribe to my YouTube, just generally because I have like all of my stuff on there.

So if people want a specific piece of advice or the skills they need, people they need to be following like what they can expect from a day to day life. My main thing would be kind of like get involved in every aspect, so get involved, volunteer for the Publishing Post and that way polish up your transferable skills. 

Get involved by applying for internships and apprenticeships. Get involved by following people on Twitter. Commenting on tweets, entering giveaways, following people such as like The Bookseller, following the careers at pages, following people who actually work in the industry just however you can, get involved in some way. 

Georgie - Great advice. I completely agree, especially on Twitter. It seems to be where everyone is. 

So coming into the final two questions, is there anything that you wish people knew about your section sector of the publishing industry? That might be a misconception that they have? 

Eleanor - I think from marketing, definitely that everyone just sits on TikTok and I think that is part of the role is part of the role. But even with that it is not just a case of taking TikToks just for the fun of it. 

You have strategy behind it, you have KPI’s behind it. There are targets to meet. So in a way, it does take away the fun of like a normal TikTok personal account. But I think people see marketing and sometimes even in other departments, they don't understand what you do on a day to day basis, which is fine if you don't have that experience, but kind of not kind of like shunning the work of marketers, I guess.

They think, you know, they just do fun stuff all day long, it's not, it's a lot of spreadsheets and still of invoices still or that sort of thing. So while it is super, super fun, I think that there is a misconception that it is just we’re just sitting about on our phones all day.

Georgie-  That's okay. So what are you reading, listening and watching at the moment? 

Eleanor - Funnily enough. I actually got sent a copy this morning to my work, of course, Must Love Books by one more chapter. And then it's actually about publishing. So it's about being an assistant in publishing. So it's a proof that comes out next year. So I'm going to read that next because the book I'm reading at the moment is actually really similar. It's called Not Safe for Work. So it's about people who work in the industry. I believe it's the TV industry. I literally only started it this morning, so I think the next two books that I'm going to read are sort of like work focused ones. I've just finished reading Hello Stranger by Rachael Marks, which I loved, its a love story about parenthood.

Yeah, so that's what I'm reading. 

Georgie - And finally, what are you currently working on that we should be looking out for? Or the most excited about?

Eleanor -  I can't pick a favorite just because of the way that it works. I can say that I predominately work on the Templar books list, which is picture books, novelty books, pop up books.

So if that does sound like something that people are interested in, if you have kids, nieces, nephews, if they're a caregiver, whatever is in the books has a lot coming out next year and even this side of Christmas as well, where we have a lot of stuff that's really exciting, really colorful, really just pretty and that do make it really, really fun to work on.

Georgie - Amazing. Did you always want to work in children's publishing? And I'd love to know what you love about it because I fee; like children's publishing didn't really hear so much about it. 

Eleanor - Yeah, unfortunately. Unfortunately, because I suppose the people that buy children's books and all the people that read children's books as opposed to adult books. So a lot of the time you see coverage of adult books because it's the people that are reading it.

You're going direct to the consumer. So when I was at Bloomsbury, I did have some involvement with adult books and it was fun and I did find it rewarding and that there was always more coverage, there's always more budget, that sort of thing. But with kids, I just feel like you do have more fun with it. Like genuinely like it is more fun.

I feel like there is less pressure to be like a number one bestseller, although that is obviously always the dream with kids publishing as well. Especially here because it's a small team. We work all the way from board books all the way up into YA. which is young adult. So I do feel like I do get like a mix.

So I think that kids, for me, provides a lot more variety and also that it's for kids like you see kids and pictures of them reading online and stuff like people send to us, it's like pretty heartwarming just seeing these kids like enjoying these colorful books and playing with it and that sort of thing is that novelty. I guess when I was at Bloomsbury, I enjoyed working on the adults. I have more fun working in kids, I suppose. And now that I'm here, I do know that I prefer working in kids and this is for me. Sometimes like any job it’s like, Oh, what would it be like if I did work in the adults division?

But I'm like, No, this is where this is what I should be like. 

Georgie - Everyone in publishing is so friendly.

And then the people who work in children's publishing are just like even more friendly. Like, they're like the nicest people in the world 

Eleanor - Because yeah, we work on like sometimes just like really silly books and like a book will come in and you can just read it in like 5 minutes and read that book like today. Like, you know what you're working on all the time.

I feel like there's less pressure to like read, you know, 400 page book is a lot easier in that sense because you can get to know the books a lot more and you're working with illustrators a lot more as well, which you don't really have in adults. So it's fun. 

Lex - So lovely listeners. That was our publishing hopeful themed episode and we are so glad to have had you along for this episode and the whole of season two.

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Jaide - As always, we're open to your feedback, so please do hit us up @tandemcollectiveuk on Instagram or using the hashtag #tandemcollectivetalks. If there’s anyone content creator wise or industry superstars or your favourite author that you think we should feature in the podcast then let us know. 

Bye!

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